Author Topic: Kendama Lunarability  (Read 6314 times)

Offline the milky oolong

  • BKA#62
  • Global Moderator
  • SuperDan
  • *****
  • Posts: 817
Kendama Lunarability
« on: 07 September, 2013, 23:23:59 »
Hey Everyone,

I have attempted to do the research and experimentation on this one for  myself but I'm at the point where I need some further opinions.

After kind of 'growing out' of my (what I think is a) TK Junior some time back I got hold of a SunRise kendama in a juggling shop in Berlin. Since then I have bought a second, natural wood finish Sunrise. They have without doubt opened up a whole new paradigm of tricks; the relatively light ken of my neon kendama handles solid flips at a good pace, and the natural wood finish has helped me nail complex Bird/Bat/Monkey stuff on each of the three kendamas I own.

The only thing that troubles me is that tricks in which the weight is balanced at the extremities of the kendama are nigh-on impossible with both my SunRise kendamas. With the old TK I can land one in three Lunars on a normal day, and mess around with Turntables and other extremity-balanced tricks comfortably, although because of the SunRise's (my main kendama) weight distribution I rarely bother to practise them. Before buying the natural wood finish (online) I explained the problem, and was told that everything was fine.

Still, it is almost impossible for me to even hold a Lunar in position or even manage a Half-Turntable with both of these kendamas. Everything else about them is perfect - I could spend hours free-styling with them, the kens lend themselves so well to fast flips and risky Lighthouse stuff. Have I just had bad luck, or do other people find that with the length of the standard SunRise ken, that certain tricks are simply almost out of the question?
« Last Edit: 08 September, 2013, 18:35:36 by the milky oolong »
Kendama Berlin
German Kendama Open 2014: 1st Place Speed Trick, 2nd Place Knockout
German Kendama Championships 2015: 3rd Place Speed Trick
KEN FEST Hannover, 2016: 3rd Place KEN Battle
KENDAMA CLASH Berlin 2016: 1st Place Intermediate

Offline BrandonYoder

  • Valley Flier
  • ****
  • Posts: 257
  • KendamaDrama.com
    • BrandonYoder
    • BrandonYoder
    • KendamaDrama
Re: Kendama Lunerability
« Reply #1 on: 08 September, 2013, 05:06:33 »
Honestly...on most of my kendamas i push my Sarado(cross piece) down really far to make so the weight of the base cup is not so far away from the other cups.. the further down you can work the sarado the easier lunars will be. This May or may not be frowned upon though.

Does anyone else do this?

Offline The Void

  • ROYALIST
  • 6th Dan / BKA#1
  • Global Moderator
  • Click Chieftan
  • *****
  • Posts: 4973
  • Royalist. 2xBrit Champ. BKA mover. IKO'16 champ.
    • TheVoidTLMB
    • 8
    • TheVoidTLMB
    • TLMB!
Re: Kendama Lunarability
« Reply #2 on: 08 September, 2013, 11:41:32 »
"Lunarability"[1] depends on two things:
A) The balance point of your ken, and/or
B) The shape of your tama.

You may say "huh, but it's spherical, isn't it?" to the latter, and that should be the case, but sadly isn't always. So try rotating the ball to all different angles, and seeing if there's a sweet spot for balancing. Imperfect balls tend to either be elongated eggs, or what I call "undercut" towards the ball hole, where the curve is bent inwards a touch more than it should be. In the latter case you might find it easier to Lunar near the string hole.

If your tamas are spherical, then the problem would seem to be in the balance of the ken, and the only way to "fix" this is to make sure the sarado is firmly wedged down as far as it will go. I've had some kendamas that weren't very lunar-friendly, which got better with age, as natural usage hammered the sarado downwards slightly with every catch. There is a danger of forcing it down so much that the balance shifts away from "standard", and you also end up with an elongated spike, which I find hinders Jumping Sticks and Earth Turns, so watch out for that.

Wood is not a uniform material, and I notice subtle variations amongst brands often. Perfection is tough.
 1. Tsk

Offline happygoat

  • BKA#10
  • Stick Jumper
  • ***
  • Posts: 115
Re: Kendama Lunerability
« Reply #3 on: 08 September, 2013, 14:14:55 »
@milky

I tend to agree with you! I have a few Sunrises and I find it extremely difficult to lunar with them. When I put the ken on the tama it must sit at a very steep angle for it to balance. I find it very difficult with my TK-16 as well, because of the very slippery paint!

Landing lunars is much easier for me when using my Ozoras.

You could sand the ken a bit to push the sarado down...

Offline the milky oolong

  • BKA#62
  • Global Moderator
  • SuperDan
  • *****
  • Posts: 817
Re: Kendama Lunarability
« Reply #4 on: 08 September, 2013, 18:42:37 »
Thanks for the information (and correction - eek! Bad joke back-fired), guys, really helpful. I guess it could be that the tamas are less than spherical, but my feeling is that the sarado sits just too high - my idea is not to 'make tricks easier' - Lunar and Turntable tricks wouldn't be fun if they were simple, but right now there is no possibility for progression in either direction with these two 'schools'. I will do a bit of fine-tuning and get back to you guys about it.

One major plus side of this has been picking up my neglected TK for comparison - landed an Inside Lunar first time after months of not playing! Fluke? Most definitely.




Kendama Berlin
German Kendama Open 2014: 1st Place Speed Trick, 2nd Place Knockout
German Kendama Championships 2015: 3rd Place Speed Trick
KEN FEST Hannover, 2016: 3rd Place KEN Battle
KENDAMA CLASH Berlin 2016: 1st Place Intermediate

Offline Kev

  • 1st Dan / BKA#5
  • Global Moderator
  • SuperDan
  • *****
  • Posts: 681
  • Keeper of the Dama of Emptiness
    • kgcooke
Re: Kendama Lunarability
« Reply #5 on: 30 October, 2013, 15:12:56 »
I've just been playing with my Enjyu Ozora and find it significantly easier to Lunar than my regular Natural Wood or my Yellow Ozora.

Noticeably the sarado sits around 5mm lower on my Enjyu compared to the other two kendamas.

I appreciate that the balance is better for Lunars when the sarado sits a bit lower - any thoughts on exactly where is ideal? How low is too low etc?

Obviously personal preference plays a part but I guess this is a question about 'optimum spike length' (or perhaps it's better to measure from the base cup to the bottom of the sarado as different kendamas will have different amounts of spike wear?)

What do you all reckon?

Offline BrandonYoder

  • Valley Flier
  • ****
  • Posts: 257
  • KendamaDrama.com
    • BrandonYoder
    • BrandonYoder
    • KendamaDrama
Re: Kendama Lunarability
« Reply #6 on: 03 November, 2013, 21:34:36 »
Generally, I find that when the string hole just starts to show it plays perfect for me.
Doesn't look very pretty though...any lower and it just looks ridiculous.
A lot of people shave their tips once the cups get worked down too far.

I have yet to own a kendama with perfect lunar balance right out of the bag, but its doable.
Though, i have never owned a jka mugen.

Offline BrandonYoder

  • Valley Flier
  • ****
  • Posts: 257
  • KendamaDrama.com
    • BrandonYoder
    • BrandonYoder
    • KendamaDrama
Re: Kendama Lunarability
« Reply #7 on: 03 November, 2013, 21:38:52 »
Also, ozoras seem to be the most consistent in my experiance.
My ozoras are all OG or the mid model(black package)....
so im not sure if the balance has improved with the new model change.

Offline emagdnim

  • BKA#65
  • Stilt Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 212
    • Facebook
    • http://instagram.com/hansvanlunsen
Re: Kendama Lunarability
« Reply #8 on: 04 November, 2013, 08:38:40 »
Also, ozoras seem to be the most consistent in my experiance.
My ozoras are all OG or the mid model(black package)....
so im not sure if the balance has improved with the new model change.

New ozoras kens are the same shape as the old ones. Perfect balance

Offline Kev

  • 1st Dan / BKA#5
  • Global Moderator
  • SuperDan
  • *****
  • Posts: 681
  • Keeper of the Dama of Emptiness
    • kgcooke
Re: Kendama Lunarability
« Reply #9 on: 17 November, 2013, 19:09:03 »
Generally, I find that when the string hole just starts to show it plays perfect for me.

Hi Brandon, do you mean the string hole is just starting to show above the Sarado?

If that's the case then your optimum Sarado position is just a touch lower than where it is on my Enjyu.

As I mentioned before, my yellow and natural Ozoras the Sarado sits almost 5mm higher than on the Enjyu.

Id love to hear some more opinions from other players (particularly on an Ozora) as to their preferred distance between the bottom of the Ken and the bottom of the Sarado.

Does Brandon's Sarado or my Enjyu sound similar to you or too high / low for your taste?

To some extent I guess it's personal opinion but also a balance between lunarability vs ease of jumping stick etc.

 

Offline Kev

  • 1st Dan / BKA#5
  • Global Moderator
  • SuperDan
  • *****
  • Posts: 681
  • Keeper of the Dama of Emptiness
    • kgcooke
Re: Kendama Lunarability
« Reply #10 on: 19 November, 2013, 16:50:54 »
Seen as I'm asking other people to measure up, thought I should do so myself.

Measuring with a digital caliper distance between Base Cup to bottom of Sarado in a straight line down the centre of the Ken

Enjyu = 94mm
Yellow Ozora = 100mm

Quite a big difference huh?

Enjyu so much easier to lunar but the yellow Ozora looks more correct proportion wise - and thoughts peeps?

Offline RodDama

  • 4th Dan
  • Stilt Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 229
    • RodDama
Re: Kendama Lunarability
« Reply #11 on: 20 November, 2013, 01:36:36 »
im all about getting the sarado down so you juuust see the string hole above the sarado. that being said, not all kens need that... every kendama has a sweet spot or lunar..no matter how slippery. what i think is getting you @the milky oolong is that their so different on your tk than it is on the sunrise. you said its a tk junior?? that would explain it.. i sometimes have trouble switching between jumbos and minis and competition sizes.. just gotta ind that sweet spot!

Offline Kev

  • 1st Dan / BKA#5
  • Global Moderator
  • SuperDan
  • *****
  • Posts: 681
  • Keeper of the Dama of Emptiness
    • kgcooke
Re: Kendama Lunarability
« Reply #12 on: 20 November, 2013, 16:09:10 »
Thanks for that [user]RodDama[/user] - seems like you and [user]BrandonYoder[/user] both have your Sarado lower than I have done generally speaking.

This is good to know, particularly as you're both much better players than me. I'm just starting to get a feel for Lunars and I think I know what you mean about a sweet spot and of course every kendama is different, even within the same make and model.

As [user]The Void[/user] pointed out, a lower Sarado does seem to make Aeroplane and Jumping Stick a little harder but I'd rather have harder Aeroplanes and easier Lunars any day!


Offline BKA

  • BKA#0
  • Administrator
  • Click Chieftan
  • *****
  • Posts: 4010
  • BKA - Spreading the kendama word since 2006!
    • BritishKendama
    • 7142
    • BritishKendama
    • British Kendama Association
Re: Kendama Lunarability
« Reply #13 on: 20 November, 2013, 16:23:43 »
No Lunars on the Dan gradings though....

Offline Kev

  • 1st Dan / BKA#5
  • Global Moderator
  • SuperDan
  • *****
  • Posts: 681
  • Keeper of the Dama of Emptiness
    • kgcooke
Re: Kendama Lunarability
« Reply #14 on: 20 November, 2013, 16:31:48 »
Fair point.

 

SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal