Author Topic: "Fast Hand" vs "Fast Throw" vs "Juggle"  (Read 3380 times)

Online The Void

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"Fast Hand" vs "Fast Throw" vs "Juggle"
« on: 12 November, 2013, 12:16:48 »
While editing the Endless Combo 2nd compilation, I realised that 2 of the tricks that we had called "juggle" only had one throw in them, so were actually Fast Hand tricks. So I changed the names in the video and the thread. That reminded me of this article. I wrote it for...

...but decided to cut it, because I felt like the distinction between "Fast Hand" and "Fast Throw" was
a) A bit subtle, and therefore perhaps a bit confusing.
b) Not catching on anyway.

So rather than have it languish on my hard drive, here it is anyway. For further info, please read Click!.
=============

"Fast Hand" vs "Fast Throw" vs "Juggle"

Some terminology!
"Fast Hand" signifies that you changed your grip to finish the trick off. This usually involves switching grip from ken to ball or vice versa. The name of the trick will be in the format "[Fast Hand] [The trick/position that you end in]". (See "Knees", pp55-57.)
Examples:
Fast Hand Base Cup (Start with an Aeroplane, then "Fast Hand" to grip the ken, and finish with a "Base Cup" catch.)
Fast Hand Candle (Start for a simple Base Cup catch, but switch to Candle grip before the end.)

"Fast Throw" is subtly different in that it requires you not only to change your grip, but to throw the part of the kendama you are holding whilst the other part is flying, before catching the flying part into your new grip.
Examples:
Fast Throw Aeroplane (Start holding the ken, swing up for a Swing In, but as the ball is flying, throw the ken up, catch the ball, and finish with an Aeroplane catch.)
Fast Throw Swing In (Start as for an Aeroplane, but as the ken flies up, throw the ball, catch the ken in your hand, and finish by catching the ball on the spike.)

If you do 2 or more Fast Throws before finishing a trick, you've now entered the world of Juggling. So if you start with the idea of a Big Cup -> Fast Throw Aeroplane, but then add a second Fast Throw instead of the Aeroplane catch, and finish back in Big Cup, then you will end up with Big Cup > Juggle Big Cup. "Juggle" will usually indicate 2 Fast Throws in sequence, but if you do a longer run, you could write (for example) Big Cup > 4-Juggle Big Cup or Big Cup > 3-Juggle Lighthouse.
« Last Edit: 22 December, 2013, 02:09:11 by BKA »

Offline fredCP

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Re: "Fast Hand" vs "Fast Throw" vs "Juggle"
« Reply #1 on: 10 August, 2014, 14:26:23 »
I come back to this old and very interesting topic with this question : is "Fast throw" the same as "Swap" ?

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Re: "Fast Hand" vs "Fast Throw" vs "Juggle"
« Reply #2 on: 10 August, 2014, 14:57:15 »
It can be. I think a "Swap" would usually be a Fast Hand move, but it depends on the timing/execution.
"Fast Throw" is subtly different in that it requires you not only to change your grip, but to throw the part of the kendama you are holding whilst the other part is flying, before catching the flying part into your new grip.

Offline fredCP

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Re: "Fast Hand" vs "Fast Throw" vs "Juggle"
« Reply #3 on: 10 August, 2014, 17:59:14 »
OK, thanks for the answer, Void !

Offline shalafi

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Re: "Fast Hand" vs "Fast Throw" vs "Juggle"
« Reply #4 on: 10 August, 2014, 20:47:12 »
Interesting. Given the subtle difference between a fast hand and a fast throw, I think we just call them fast hand to all of them.
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Offline Dimensions

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Re: "Fast Hand" vs "Fast Throw" vs "Juggle"
« Reply #5 on: 10 August, 2014, 21:26:58 »
I use this terminology due to a few things,
I've always considerd a fast hand as more of a "smooth" transition, that is a grip change with a subtle hand move. So with this trick:

I call it "spacewalk fast throw spike" as it is a more distinctive transition.
Another reason I call it fast throw as I would consider this: (2:03)

Spacewalk fast hand spike. If we called the first trick a fast hand what would the second trick be?

But if we do use the official terminology there becomes a few problems with just "fast hand spike":
This is the official "fast hand spike":

But then what is this?: (1:36)

(I couldn't find a spike version but use your imagination people!) it's not a fast throw but not quite a fast hand?

But my most confusing bit of terminology is the only "un-official" trick name I use. The tradespike:

I know that this is a fast hand but if so, what is this called? (2:12)


Just some food for thought but I would love some answers too!
-Rob

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Offline fredCP

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Re: "Fast Hand" vs "Fast Throw" vs "Juggle"
« Reply #6 on: 11 August, 2014, 08:13:12 »
Thanks for this, Dimensions! Your examples are very good, and from these videos it may help to improve the terminology. Indeed, how do we call it in the Ernie Edit ? As for the "tradespike", I had the same question a few weeks ago watching the Level 3 trick list for the World Cup in Hatsukaishi in which this trick appears. Answers are welcome, at least ideas to clarify the names.

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Re: "Fast Hand" vs "Fast Throw" vs "Juggle"
« Reply #7 on: 11 August, 2014, 11:13:29 »
I use this terminology due to a few things,
I've always considerd a fast hand as more of a "smooth" transition, that is a grip change with a subtle hand move. So with this trick:

I call it "spacewalk fast throw spike" as it is a more distinctive transition.
Agreed
Quote
Another reason I call it fast throw as I would consider this: (2:03)

Spacewalk fast hand spike.
Agreed.
Quote
If we called the first trick a fast hand what would the second trick be?

But if we do use the official terminology there becomes a few problems with just "fast hand spike":
This is the official "fast hand spike":
Yes, it's ("Pull up....") Fast Hand Spike, but the literal translation is "Cover Ken". One of those many trick name anomalies within kendama.
Quote
But then what is this?: (1:36)

(I couldn't find a spike version but use your imagination people!) it's not a fast throw but not quite a fast hand?
I think it's a Fast Throw Bird
Quote

But my most confusing bit of terminology is the only "un-official" trick name I use. The tradespike:
Trade Spike = Fast Hand Spike = (usually) Swap In, although "... in" is often (confusingly, imho) used for an Aeroplane finish, so I prefer Swap Spike
Quote
I know that this is a fast hand but if so, what is this called? (2:12)
It's a Fast Hand Spike! (From a Lighthouse). Or Fast Hand Cover Ken. Or, since terminology can't always express things clearly, it could be "that trick he did at 2:12 in this video"!
Quote
Just some food for thought but I would love some answers too!
-Rob
Good summarisation job, Rob. It only makes it clear that the terminology distinction between FH and FT is blurred. That's why I didn't put it in the book. Mostly people are going with "Swap (..... to Lighthouse, or Spike, or whatever)" or Trade (.... Usually "spike"). I think in most cases that covers it, but if you/we really need to be super distinct in specific cases, then we could revert to FH/FT etc.
« Last Edit: 11 August, 2014, 11:25:44 by The Void »

Offline shalafi

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Re: "Fast Hand" vs "Fast Throw" vs "Juggle"
« Reply #8 on: 11 August, 2014, 19:16:41 »
I think there are cases when you can do a fast hand or a fast throw and cases when you can only do a fast throw.

Dimensions made a very good point. I take my assumption back.
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Offline PikWik

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Re: "Fast Hand" vs "Fast Throw" vs "Juggle"
« Reply #9 on: 11 August, 2014, 19:38:20 »
i like that this is being discussed. i wish i had something to add but for now i have to agree with what is being written.

tho, much like a tradespike having a non-traditional name, there are skate tricks where the obvious trick name is not the given name and an all new name has replaced what would be a simple 180-degree version of a trick.

Offline Dimensions

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Re: "Fast Hand" vs "Fast Throw" vs "Juggle"
« Reply #10 on: 05 September, 2014, 17:03:56 »
Hi, I recently thought of some more terminology on this subject about this:

Quote
But then what is this?: (1:36)

(I couldn't find a spike version but use your imagination people!) it's not a fast throw but not quite a fast hand?
I think it's a Fast Throw Bird[/quote]

First off here is a better video: (1:06)


Void thinks it's a fast throw - I disagree[1]. I agree it's not a fast hand, but it don't think it's quite a fast throw.
I think this, because there is no distinct "flying" object until after the catch of the ken. But I do think that temporarily the whole 'dama is flying
Void, you even wrote that a fast throw needs a "flying" object and a throw to be a fast throw

"Fast Throw" is subtly different in that it requires you not only to change your grip, but to throw the part of the kendama you are holding whilst the other part is flying, before catching the flying part into your new grip.
In the case of this trick you don't distinctively throw a part, and it not quite the other part, but more like the whole thing!
Another loophole is, if you think that is a fast throw - then why is this trick called fast hand drill?:
BKA Outlink 2014 Trick #10 - juggling videos hosted @ Juggling.tv

So if your all in an understanding, I think that we should have a new "fast" move, for these moves:
How about
Fast flying
Flying fast hand
Fast full throw
Fast swap

Also some more loop holes:
This isn't a fast hand, it's a fast throw
We should rename this as "pull up fast throw flying top (no. 20)
Pro Division - EKO 2014 - juggling videos hosted @ Juggling.tv

And this is a fast throw spike and not the first trick I was talking about
http://instagram.com/p/p4kLwRCHpT/

Hope you all understand this
-Rob

P.S [user]Void[/user] I'm not picking on you, I just think that there is a lot of confusion with these tricks and there have been so many loopholes with this terminology and it needed sorting. And yes I am also guilty of using these in the wrong way too!
 1. ooh, discussion building...
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Re: "Fast Hand" vs "Fast Throw" vs "Juggle"
« Reply #11 on: 05 September, 2014, 17:39:53 »
Well, first of all, I was trying to say in the first place that "Fast hand" and "Fast throw" are too confusingly similar, and so we should only use Fast Hand.
Quote
Hi, I recently thought of some more terminology on this subject about this:

Quote
But then what is this?: (1:36)

(I couldn't find a spike version but use your imagination people!) it's not a fast throw but not quite a fast hand?
I think it's a Fast Throw Bird

First off here is a better video: (1:06)
Well, I don't think that's a better video, because I think that looks like it ends on the spike, not in a bird.
Quote
Void thinks it's a fast throw - I disagree[1]. I agree it's not a fast hand, but it don't think it's quite a fast throw.
 1. ooh, discussion building...
Okay, looking again, I think that the Fast [whatever it is] manoeuvre begins with the initiation of the motion of the thrown part, which begins when the other part is still hanging, not flying. So therefore I'm changing my mind, and saying that I think these are Fast Hand moves.
Quote
I think this, because there is no distinct "flying" object until after the catch of the ken. But I do think that temporarily the whole 'dama is flying
Void, you even wrote that a fast throw needs a "flying" object and a throw to be a fast throw
"Fast Throw" is subtly different in that it requires you not only to change your grip, but to throw the part of the kendama you are holding whilst the other part is flying, before catching the flying part into your new grip.
In the case of this trick you don't distinctively throw a part, and it not quite the other part, but more like the whole thing!
Another loophole is, if you think that is a fast throw - then why is this trick called fast hand drill?:
BKA Outlink 2014 Trick #10 - juggling videos hosted @ Juggling.tv
I agree that I was wrong in my interpretation of that first trick.. So by the "when the FHX move begins" rule, that is still a Fast Hand Drill.
Quote
So if your all in an understanding, I think that we should have a new "fast" move, for these moves:
How about
Fast flying
Flying fast hand
Fast full throw
Fast swap
Zoiks!
Quote
Also some more loop holes:
This isn't a fast hand, it's a fast throw
We should rename this as "pull up fast throw flying top (no. 20)
Pro Division - EKO 2014 - juggling videos hosted @ Juggling.tv
Well, again, you can argue that the manoeuvre begins with the start of the pulling up. Or you could argue the opposite. It's certainly a grey area.
Quote
And this is a fast throw spike and not the first trick I was talking about
http://instagram.com/p/p4kLwRCHpT/
That's more clear-cut, so I'd probably agree with you. Except that i don't think "Fast throw" is ever going to catch on in a clearly understood way, so I'm still going to call it a FH.
Quote
Hope you all understand this
-Rob

P.S [user]Void[/user] I'm not picking on you, I just think that there is a lot of confusion with these tricks and there have been so many loopholes with this terminology and it needed sorting. And yes I am also guilty of using these in the wrong way too!
No problem, mate, I'm all for discussions if they help to clarify things. But I don't think this does. I probably shouldn't have started this thread at all! :-) The Juggle stuff still makes sense though.

Offline Dimensions

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Re: "Fast Hand" vs "Fast Throw" vs "Juggle"
« Reply #12 on: 05 September, 2014, 17:52:59 »
I guess I have to agree in everything you just said there Void, I just think that as this probably won't catch on, it's still worth having a small understanding. So we can name things differently from the "cover-ken" fast hand and the "swap style" fast hand

-Rob
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Re: "Fast Hand" vs "Fast Throw" vs "Juggle"
« Reply #13 on: 05 September, 2014, 17:55:18 »
"Fast Place"?

Aaargh! He he....

 

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