The Kendama Forum

Forum categories => Tricks => Topic started by: hater on 07 November, 2011, 16:20:14

Title: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: hater on 07 November, 2011, 16:20:14
Hi, I have been playing for about 3 weeks. I can do all the tricks in the beginner list (except lighthouse) and some little combos, but it's totally impossible for me to maintain the balance in lighthouse. I have tried and tried but can't have it for more than 2 seconds and always moving mi arm to maintain it there, not like in the videos I have seen that they can put it in balance very easy -.-U

My other problem is with Bird. I can't find the right angle to land it, it always fall to one side or the other. I have tried and saw a lot of videos, I can land it maybe 1 out of 20 attempts, very depressing -_-

Please guys, help me with this, I need some help to improve my game.
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: Mark on 07 November, 2011, 17:33:19
For lighthouse push up slightly as it lands to stabalise it.
And bird. Umm just practice it loads! :-P
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: kendamatty on 07 November, 2011, 17:47:29
If you've only been playing for 3 weeks chances are your kendama is not worn it enough yet from regular play to give the ball more "tack" which is what helps other players remain still during lighthouses.
As for birds, that is where practice makes perfect. As you get more and more used to subtle movements of the kendama, you will keep the hole pointing pertfectly down, its the angle of you holding the ken which you learn over time. But remember to just relax! It took me a couple of months not weeks to get these tricks even semi-consistently!
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: GbH on 07 November, 2011, 18:43:04
For Bird, I find that the method of pulling the ball up makes a big difference.  It's hard to explain in writing, but I start with only a tiny downward movement, then bring it upwards in such a way that the string remains taught for a bit longer than I'd usually expect.  It's less of a jerk, more a gradual accelleration.  This seems seems to help stabilise the ball and makes it easier to judge exactly the height it needs to rise to.
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: hater on 07 November, 2011, 19:38:47
Hi for the tips guys!!

@Mark.- I'm trying that, but It's totally impossible for me to stop it from fall -.-   But I will continue trying...

@Kendamatty.- My Kendama has a lot of scuffs, I have played it  alot, but maybe it isn't worn enough yet. I thought people was able to do all his trick in a new kendama too. OK, I will continue practicing. I think I'm a fast learner, but maybe that tricks are more hard that what I thought.

What tricks do you think I must control in 3 weeks?

@GbH.- I'm still learning to put the ball up always straight, so maybe that's a part of the problem too. I can do it well half of the times I try. I will try to learn to push it more slowly so it lands more stabilised. I can understand what you mean, but don't know if will be able to do it yet.

Thanks for your tips guys, hope to hear more from you so I can improve more every day. This is not my first skilltoy, I have been a yoyo player for the last 4 or 5 years and I think I'm good at it. I hope to be able to play Kendama as good as I yoyo...

Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: SamB on 07 November, 2011, 21:23:18
Someone said that you're supposed to watch the tip of the spike as you balance a lighthouse. I'm not sure I do this but it may help. And I remember GbH telling me a while back to get a bird you need to know when the ball will be at its highest and catch it when its only just started falling.

As with all balance tricks I find it good to just hold the balance without the catch and try and walk around (for example put the ken on the ball like a lighthouse with yor hand, let go with it balanced then tr taking a step and turning while keeping the balance. You get bonus points for making it up the stairs). This is how I got the feel for lunars and how I'm (still!) trying to land a bamboo horse.

3 weeks is no time though. I'm impressed you even managed a single bird! Patience and practice is boring but true advice.

And obviously the thing with all kendama: KNEES!!
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: The Void on 08 November, 2011, 22:01:40
You've been playing for 3 weeks, and you can hit Bird 1 in 20? I think you're doing really well!
"More practice" is the boring, but true answer.
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: hater on 09 November, 2011, 01:13:33
Hi guys! Good news, I focused all my attention in bird and now I usually can land it 1 of 10. Sometimes it is in the 14th, sometimes in the 5th and some times I'm nervous and can't make it till the 20th, but I'm starting to feel it and learning to balance the "landing" in the rim of the cup. Thanks to your tips I'm improving, I focused in stay calm, the angle, doing a slow acceleration in the start and trying to catch it when it's in his peak and it's really working. For me "more practice" is not boring, I'm really enjoying this skilltoy and if I feel tired of trying something I just switch to yoyo and relax myself. Kendama just stresses me a little more right now LOL

You all give me very good tips, thanks a lot :D You have a very good comunity here!

PS: For me I think is more easy to land a bird than balancing lighthouse, but I'm improving with it too, just more slowly.
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: AlexSmith on 13 November, 2011, 02:01:17
At first it seems easier to do birds consistently (compared to lighthouse). Eventually most people change their mind on this in my experience.
The 'looking at the spike while balancing' can definitely help, but you'll want to make the catch, get a little balance, then concentrate on the spike. I admit I don't 'spike-look' often, but in the past I've tried it out and noticed it can help. (Makes sense, a slight tilt in the ken's angle will result in a larger displacement of the spike than the slip-stall, so it should be easier for your eyes to pick up on which way the ken is leaning).

Also, what the Void said. Practise is the boring answer, but 99% of the time it is the correct answer with dama.
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: GbH on 13 November, 2011, 17:25:08
To better understand what's going when you're doing a Lighthouse, it's useful to think of two techniques that are commonly used by jugglers - 'balancing' and 'placement'.  These techniques can sometimes look very similar to the casual observer, yet are quite different in terms of the technique required to perform them.  Unusually, the kendama lighthouse trick commonly makes use of both of these, albeit at different times.

In simple terms, the difference between them is that, for a placement, the rest position is entirely stable.  Provided nothing moves, the object being 'placed' will remain in position naturally, without any need for human intervention.  A common juggling trick that demonstrates this effectively is when a performer places a ball on the very top of their head and it stays there.  There's absolutely no balancing required for this - it stays there because it's in a stable position (if this sounds unlikely, it works because human head's aren't properly round!).  As it happens, the ideal way to do a lighthouse is via the placement method, too.  You can prove this by placing the tama, hole downwards, on a flat work surface, then positioning the ken on top in the lighthouse position.  It'll  happily stay like that of its own accord - it's stable.  Thus, it's a placement.  Likewise, instead of putting the tama on a table, if you just hold it completely still, the same thing will happen. 

For a balance, though, the object in question is not - and never will be - stable.  Left to its own devices, it will always fall.  Thus, to stop this happening, the performer has to continually move the base that the balanced object is resting on, so as to compensate for the falling motion.  As soon as the performer stops this compensating motion (or, just gets it wrong...) the object will fall.  When undertaking such a balance, it's usual (and optimal) for the performer to concentrate entirely on the top of the object.  If this is obscured in some way (say, if you're balancing a chair on your chin...), then instead you'd look at the place that you assume the top to be.  Thus, for kendama, the reason why you might be looking at the spike.  Actually, the need to be looking at the object is a very good indicator of whether you're doing a placement or balance.  A placement should never need looking at (you should be able to do it with your eyes closed) whereas a balance always requires observation. 

So, back to the lighthouse.  Ideally, when you're in the lighthouse position, it's a placement.  If you can get into the lighthouse position and close your eyes without the ken falling off, then yes, that's the optimum position.  However, as you've most certainly found, you'll quite often find, when initially landing a lighthouse, that it's not stable at all.  As such, this is when you need to enter balancing mode, moving the tama to counteract the falling motion.  You could potentially maintain that position of balance indefinately, so long as you kept moving the tama around.  Ideally, though, you'll want to move the ken so that it changes from an unstable balance to a stable placement, but it does take a bit of practice to learn how to do this consistently.

So, in general, learning to balance an object like this takes a certain amount of skill.  The shorter the object, the more difficult it usually is to balance.  Something the size of kendama is actually quite a lot more difficult than, say, a garden broom.  As such, if you want to improve this aspect of your kendama playing, it might first be beneficial to practice balancing much longer objects.  Most relevant, I guess, will be to learn to balance things on your hand (which, isn't too difficult).  However, learning to do the same balance on your chin or forehead might give you a better understanding about how it works (it's a skill that you can use for other kendama tricks, too).

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: hater on 14 November, 2011, 00:47:58
Guys, thx a lot for taking the time to answer me. Lately I have been more focused in bird. I really like this trick and I have improved a lot thx to your tips, but I'm still learning the perfect angle/acceleration to land it more consistently.

With Lighthouse I think the problem is bigger because I have never tried any skilltoy related with balances. I have never bean able to land it in the right placement, so I always end trying to balance it.

Lately I have been playing a little game always I can. If I have something to do, go to the fridge, read a comic, do a call, whatever it is, I have to land a bird first (girlfriend is not always happy about it, just imagine LOL). This helps to improve a lot!! First times I have to try 20 times to be able to do what I want, now usually I have to try less than 10 and I can go an do it LOL In a couple of week when I can land in properly, will try it with Lighthouse. The rest of the time, I'm always trying combos and other stuff...

I'm really loving kendama!
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: Mark on 14 November, 2011, 10:49:20
I find lighthouse to be the easiest of the "hard" tricks. I really dont get why people have trouble with it. :P
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: BKA on 14 November, 2011, 11:46:41
Quote from: hater on 14 November, 2011, 00:47:58Lately I have been playing a little game always I can. If I have something to do, go to the fridge, read a comic, do a call, whatever it is, I have to land a bird first....

Sounds familiar (http://www.kendama.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,27.0.html)! :)
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: LarsVegas on 14 November, 2011, 23:38:13
Yeah, lighthouse is much easier for me too. I can do a lighthouse every 1 of about 10 (sometimes more often). For birds it's about every 1 in a hundred (sometimes much less).
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: hater on 16 November, 2011, 12:12:59
GbH thx a lot for your tips about lighthouse!! I have been trying it this past 2 days and focusing in the placement when landing and I have really improved a lot. I have gone from being unable to land it, to land it 1 of 10 or 15 !! I have found that if I look at the base after landing it, It's more easy for me to search the right stable point and maintain the balance.

Yesterday I landed my first bird with an around the world after it. I did it 2 times in a row. I feel I'm improving a lot with these 2 tricks and is all thanks to you guys! The tips in this post really helped a lot, I hope all the new players that come to the forum can see this someday, because it really helps!

@BKA: I didn't know about that post, but it's also a very good idea. You just have to land X before doing Y, that only will make you better!!
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: AlexSmith on 19 November, 2011, 20:38:37
I love the size of this thread.

I think that bird and lighthouse are two very 'defining' moments in your progression of tricks. In the big picture these tricks come very early on and ultimately aren't too tough once you have practised them a lot, but at the time they represent some major hurdles.
Birds you need much more control and accuracy in your movements that simple juggling, and lighthouse is the introduction to balancing tricks.

Great work getting these down guys, and like it's been said many times before, practise! It's what kendama is all about.
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: hater on 20 November, 2011, 19:46:21
Now the thread is shorter, but I love to see how my little contribution to this forum is growing so much  ;D
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: hater on 24 November, 2011, 17:00:09
Now that I can land Bird consistenly, I need some tips for Bird fly over the valley. I haven't been able to land it a single time, anyone have good tips for this?

Im still learning to balance an land lighthouse, but at least I can land it some times now :D
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: Peter on 24 November, 2011, 20:44:14
Bird over the valley: well, I am not a consistency pro myself with this trick. Maybe, someone else will add on to my following proposals...

1. Try to think about not moving the ball at all. The hole should be on the bottom of the ball. And remain there. That's it.
2. Just move the ken. This implies, that you throw up the ball very straight upwards.
3. Knees! Knees upwards, for throwing the ball, Knees downwards, for catching it. And in between, move the ken.
4. Balance: Try to memorize a stable angle, where the ball lays on the rims, small and big. Just walk around with the ball balancing in your neighborhood, this should give you a good feeling of where the tipping point is. If available: use public transport for balancing both birds. Bus, trains, anything ;-) If not available, go to the next playground, and try to balance the birds on the swing. Balance the small cup bird while holding the ken just on the index finger (loosen the grip, on finger by each other, until you don't hold the ken at all, just balancing it). try o balance the bird on your forehead, on you big toe, on your shoulder, your knee, anything... you will soon recognize, that this goddamn ball glues to the ken anytime. And then: you have got it!

Move on, just do it!
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: Kens on 10 November, 2012, 02:18:56
Hey guys, I'm pretty new to kendama. I bought an Ozora 3 weeks ago and I feel like lighthouses are impossible for me. I've been practicing almost everyday since I got it.  It feels like the tama is too slippery for it. Do you guys have any advice on lighthouses? Thanks.
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: Bad Wolf on 10 November, 2012, 03:30:27
I started with an Ozora as well. One way I practiced Lighthouses was I would hold the tama and just put the ken on it. I would then (try my best) to walk forward, turn around, and walk back.

It helped me get a feel of how the ken would move around on the tama. hope this helps!
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: Kens on 10 November, 2012, 04:56:00
Are you really comfortable with lighthouses now?
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: Bad Wolf on 10 November, 2012, 07:36:54
I would say so. You'll only start feeling more confident when you start sticking em on the landing. Of course "KNEES" but another rule I go by when catching Lighthouses is "DANCE." Because once you catch it, you gotta bend those knees and start the balance dance.
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: BKA on 10 November, 2012, 09:25:23
Hi Kens,
Welcome to the forum. We merged your topic with an older one that has some helpful suggestions. Have a read back through it from page 1.
Cheers,
BKA
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: MrMrG3AR on 03 December, 2012, 03:55:51
So recently I've finally been able to land a few lighthouses. I have even spiked it after. I'm very pleased that I've even been able to do it once, but I can't keep it consistent, and this is frustrating me. I know a few tips, of course the "knee's" goes without saying, and also looking at the tip of the ken spike.
My ken wobbles on top and whenever I try to correct it, it simply slides right off.
I've been using an ozora white rabbit, and a tribute bamboo to practice.
Please, any other tips would be great!

Thanks in advance

~Greg
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: The Void on 03 December, 2012, 11:20:27
Hi Greg, and welcome to the forum. i've merged your thread with another one. Have a read back through it, as it has some very helpful advice on Lighthouse. Give those tips a try, and then come back and let us know how you're getting on. Good luck!
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: andi_squire on 27 December, 2012, 04:21:59
i've been learn lighthouse effectively for 3-4 days, i already landed a few times but never more than 3 sec, then i try put myself on video and find out what's the problem, then i found some issues :
1. it's realy hard to pull the ken straightly
2. sometimes the string and bead are come out from the hole of tama after i pull the ken
for those issues i put my ring finger in the bottom of the tama (hole is on the top) and touch the string a little bit just to make the ken more straight and the string and bead not slip away through the hole

i still can't make the ken stable for more than 3 sec ,is there any advice?
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: The Void on 28 December, 2012, 03:44:46
If your kendama is quite new, the paint is probably quite slippery. Lighthouses will get a little easier as you wear it in.

Dip deep, straighten up immediately. If it still comes up tilted, try pulling up *slightly* away from the spike.

Practise!
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: Jagmcool on 14 March, 2013, 03:32:45
So I'm new to Kendama (I'm from the YoYoExpert community) but I'm having trouble landing the ken on the tama because it seems so slick. I have a Ozora. Is there some sort of technique? (Other than bending knees) any help is appreciated! :)
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: JamesFM on 14 March, 2013, 03:38:33
Hey Jag! this is James May from YYE  :D

How new is your kendama? Usually it will be grippier once broken in. Also, practice just dropping the ken onto the tama from an inch or 2 up. This will help develop your balance for lighthouse / lunar. I can barely catch a lighthouse from dropping an inch above, so Im not the best person to be giving advice.

As always more knees.
Try holding the tama with a lighter grip. Seems to help the ken balance.
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: Waylon on 14 March, 2013, 03:52:10
http://juggling.tv/12906

http://www.kendama.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=905
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: JamesFM on 14 March, 2013, 05:56:10
I was able to land a few legit lighthouses tonight. I realized what I was doing wrong.

Don't let the ken "fall" on to the tama.
Move the tama upward under the ken when the ken reaches its apex from you pulling it up. That way the ken gently rests on the tama as opposed to violently dropping on it.
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: BKA on 14 March, 2013, 16:22:30
Hi Jagmcool,
Welcome to the forum.
Looks like you might not have read the faq (http://www.kendama.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6.0.html), or searched with the relevant terms, and so have missed the topic which we have now merged (http://www.kendama.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,215.0.html) your one into. Have a read back through the posts in it, as there's some great advice in there.
Cheers,
BKA.
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: Misterwhang on 02 June, 2013, 04:08:57
Hey I know this post has not been active for a while but I found a really big tip for lighthouse (for beginners at least)..

The grip on the tama has to be light, dont squeeze the tama... lightly hold it and it will be easier to balance!
Title: Bird help?
Post by: crudeswagstorm on 17 September, 2014, 00:36:27
Hi! I have been playing kendama for a month or two, and I am really trying hard to learn the trick the bird. I have watched every tutorial, it just doesn't seem to work. I have tried multiple types of kendamas and still doesn't work. The tama just bounces off the cup. Also i have tried bending my knees, doesn't help. Any advice?  :P
Title: Re: Bird help?
Post by: M.Wang on 17 September, 2014, 02:26:50
Hi crudeswagstorm!

I find that it helps to put your thumb on the big cup when you're doing bird. Also, make sure the ken is tilted slightly when you pull the tama up. Think of it kinda like a spike in the way that it's crucial to pull the tama straight up.

Hope this helps!

M.Wang
Title: Re: Bird help?
Post by: BKA on 17 September, 2014, 10:12:41
Several tips for Bird in this thread: http://www.kendama.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,215.0.html (http://www.kendama.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,215.0.html)
Title: Re: Bird help?
Post by: the milky oolong on 17 September, 2014, 18:30:31
Femur and patella on the catch. I mean:

KNEES!
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: JREAMR on 04 October, 2014, 05:59:48
I apologize for bringing up this old post. However, this is the reference I used for learning lighthouse. At some point, I started to land lighthouses more often. However, over the course of the week, I have noticed that the bottom cup's edge is flattening or smoothing out. It's a lot harder to maintain the balance on the tama even if I simply place the ken there. It feels incredibly slippery compared to a week ago. I've been practicing this trick extensively and my landing rate has gone down. I doubt it's the tama since I've been wearing it out more. Also, this has been my 3rd week of kendama (fyi). Do you guys think its the kens's fault? It doesn't make sense for me to get worse at it the more I practice it....
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: The Void on 04 October, 2014, 09:37:05
I'd guess it's one of two things:
1. You're just having a bad patch at this trick. Everyone hits them, on tricks they are normally solid on. Since you've only been playing for 3 weeks, I think this could be quite likely. Breathe! Maybe you've just "forgotten" to soften the knees on the catch, or some subtle hand movement has gone awry. Focus on analysing your technique to see if you can spot anything. If not, advice is: Leave this trick alone for a week or two, then come back to it.
or
2. You've managed to dent the base cup rim so that a small section is protruding inwards into the cup, breaking the clean circular line. This will make Lighthouse catches more awkward. If so, try to GENTLY ease it back into shape, first using the tama, or some other piece of wood, so as not to make things worse.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: JREAMR on 04 October, 2014, 11:14:39
Thanks for the advice. Perhaps, I'll give it a week or so and come back to it. In the meantime, I'll give my tk16 a proper beating by mastering the other beginner tricks.  :P
Title: Re: Bird help?
Post by: Kev on 29 October, 2014, 09:04:49
Quote from: crudeswagstorm on 17 September, 2014, 00:36:27
The tama just bounces off the cup.

That's a problem. You need to catch much more gently. Move downwards when catching, cushioning with your knees and a whole smooth downwards movement of your body and hands.

That said, with a well placed launch the downwards catching movement can be quite slight - more of a downward dip. Think about the energy in the tama rising, you need just enough to get it to the right height for the catch, any more is both unnecessary and will increase chances of bouncing off.

Finally I'd check the alignment of the tama - make sure the hole is pointing straight down as you catch.

Keep practicing with patience and you will get there.

:)
Title: Re: Help with Bird and balance in Lighthouse?
Post by: caiel on 04 November, 2014, 10:12:41
I can do 1turn lighthouse more then I can do regular lighthouse, wierd. 1 out of 3 times 1 turn LH. 1 out of 5 times LH.for light house, Try to cushion the landing very slightly meaning when the ken lands use your knees or arms to move with the ken as it goes down