The Kendama Forum

Forum categories => Tricks => Topic started by: The Void on 13 November, 2012, 00:58:50

Title: Moshi Kame
Post by: The Void on 13 November, 2012, 00:58:50
I just realised there's not been a thread about this trick yet. Perhaps this vid is a good way to start one.
2012全日本けん玉道もしかめ選手権東京会場全部 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS_BPsIDqvA#) - All Japan moshikame competition 11.11.2012.

12 minutes is the longest I've ever gone for, and never tried to go further. So, what drives you to try longer runs? Why does this ultimately simple trick hold such a fascination? Is it right that you need to master it to get the high Dan gradings?

What do you all think? Discuss!
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: SamB on 21 November, 2012, 15:09:05
1000 at the EJC with one of the Danes' blue stringless oozoras is my record and thankfully recorded in the Dan grading. How did I do that? Here is a list of things that I think helped:

a) I think that kendama was magic because, well, have you seen those guys play?
b) I had been practicing moshi kame most days.
c) I had been playing kendama non-stop for at least 2 days so was very well practiced generally.
d) STRINGLESS - No tangling so don't have to think about hole control
e) KNEES - Still surprises me the terrible throw you can catch by just bending your knees (and great excercise!)
f) CONCENTRATE - Every catch is important, mess one up and it's over.
g) RELAX - It's just you, the kendama and the moshi kame, forget everything else, become at one mannnnnn..........

Going for hours though? I have no idea. I imagine it involves straight up training, a lot, every day, like similar to an endurance race or something.
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: The Void on 21 November, 2012, 15:15:53
Moshe fight at London convention?! :D
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: The Void on 21 November, 2012, 16:32:26
Quote from: SamB on 21 November, 2012, 15:09:05e) KNEES - Still surprises me the terrible throw you can catch by just bending your knees (and great excercise!)
f) CONCENTRATE - Every catch is important, mess one up and it's over.
g) RELAX - It's just you, the kendama and the moshi kame, forget everything else, become at one mannnnnn..........

Going for hours though? I have no idea. I imagine it involves straight up training, a lot, every day, like similar to an endurance race or something.
Yep. Knees are still used, but less conspicuously.  You could view "concentrate" and "relax" as being contradictory, but I know what Sam means. I'll add
H) Listen to music on headphones. It will enable you to feel relaxed, and help to block out all extraneous distractions, so you can just focus on the clicking.
I) Posture. Keep yourself evenly balanced on both feet. Relax the shoulders - don't let them hunch up. Keep your elbow level with the side of your body (i.e. Not too far forwards or backwards), and your hand close to the centre of your body, and not too high.

I just did my first endurance run since Poland, and got 7 minutes. Probably borderline as to whether I got the 1000 that I should theoretically be able to do! :)
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: SamB on 22 November, 2012, 15:03:12
I'm not sure how moshi fight would work -  like clubs gladiators but moshi kame? Or are we going for the 6 1/2 hour record?

I wouldn't moshi kame with headphones on though, I think not hearing the click would throw me off. But after watching that video it seems they try to keep good posture throughout so I think that is a good tip.
To answer the question of why do it, I think it is a simple trick that anyone can do within their first kendama session and it's very measurable compared to any other trick so you can directly see yourself progress as your record increases. It also teaches you the Japanese way to play kendama which I always think of just focussing on a simple action and not much else. I guess I'd do it because it's the traditional way and the Dan gradings give a very good target.
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: The Void on 22 November, 2012, 16:53:25
Oh, I just meant an endurance battle. :)
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: AlexSmith on 23 November, 2012, 17:04:39
The only time I have ever practised moshikame was pre-EJC 2012, its fun to click a little moshikame here and there, but I'm not one to go deep into a 'kame sesh. I may practise again if I go to EJC 2013, but for now I'm more interested in more creative tricks.
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: mahoto on 14 February, 2013, 10:11:55
This movie is uploaded myself.
(My name is Mahoto Tsukaguchi).


I think in the world, such a form of competition is very seldom.
Moshikame is big dish and small dish continuous,very simple.
About 10 minutes played, moshikame's form is a little out of order.
at this time, you fall the ball.

Japanese competition think heavily playing kendama exactly.
this Kendama competition's main long time member are almost over Kendama  5 dan.

non-Japanse Kendama competiton, such a competition is very seldom, I think.
Moshikame  is Japan own culture,I think.
 
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: BKA on 14 February, 2013, 11:09:19
Hello Mahoto-san,
Welcome to the forum.

In the UK, sometimes we have a Moshi Kame competition at the BKO. But it usually only lasts for 5 minutes! :-)
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: Kev on 16 December, 2013, 21:26:24
As we've been talking Moshi Kame elsewhere on the forum today I thought it might be nice to post in the trick listing for it.

The thing that's hardest for me about getting a long run seems to be my grip slipping once I've been clicking away for a while. To try and keep the grip locked and steady I use a pen grip variant where my ring finger and little finger rest across both edges of the small cup while my middle finger tucks in on the opposite side of the Sarado to my index finger and thumb. Have a look here:

(http://i44.tinypic.com/somq28.jpg)

Slight odd looking angle but the only shot I could get where you can see all fingers at once!

I'm interested to see / hear about the grip you use. Do any of you have a similar issue? How do you solve it?

PS - anyone think we should move those latest comments in the 'Today I ...' thread to this one re: moshi tips? Might be useful to collect it all together. If so how can this be done?
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: BKA on 16 December, 2013, 22:31:56
We can move entire posts across, but all those posts seem to have an "And also" bit on another subject, so those would be lostvfrom the threads where they belong. If people want to make a post in this thread, they can then edit out the Moshi sections from their Today I posts, and edit them into this thread.
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: BKA on 18 December, 2013, 12:20:31
We can move entire posts across, but all those posts seem to have an "And also" bit on another subject, so those would be lost from the threads where they belong. If people want to make a post in this thread, they can then edit out the Moshi sections from their Today I posts, and edit them into this thread.

Or we could do this:
Quote from: Cliffdama on 16 December, 2013, 12:09:58I suck at moshi kame :o.
Quote from: Kev on 16 December, 2013, 14:07:04It's been said somewhere on the forum that it's the Moshi's that get 'em every time. It's definitely the area I'm weakest on so have been trying to practice on a near daily basis. Thing is, although I'm really trying to learn to love Moshi Kame - I can't stand doing it, I find it annoying, boring and uncomfortable after a time. Of course, this attitude isn't going to help me get on the Dan table so I've been trying to make friends with the Moshi Monster!

Something that may be helpful (it was for me) is to not count the catches just note the time. For me this helps me focus in on the trick and relax into it better as I'm not counting.

Once you're rocking around 135bpm you know that 1 min = 135 catches so just set yourself a time to Moshi for. Say for example you're going for 1st Dan, practice for 2 mins at 135bpm you will have done 270 which is 70 more than the required 200. This way seems to work for me and you get that bit of extra practice going beyond your target.

For some reason 2 mins of Moshi seems so much more achievable than 200 catches. Weird huh?
Quote from: The Void on 16 December, 2013, 14:16:55...yeah, +1 for what Kev said about timing your Moshis, not counting them. Put on some nice tunes and just click away at (a bit faster than)  the required pace.
Quote from: HansNickmans on 16 December, 2013, 18:45:17On the moshikame, I practiced with a 135 bpm beat in my ears (no music, just the beat). And I count everytime I hit base cup, then you only have to do half :-) And there's the fun of multiplying afterwards :-) With that technique, I got my 200 moshikame first try in Toulouse (my second try was horrible).

With that beat, I kinda zone out after a hundred catches. And suddenly you wake up and you're around 450 (only happened once).
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: Kev on 18 December, 2013, 23:37:01
Nice one. Was intending on doing that but you beat me to it.
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: talincrow on 28 January, 2014, 03:09:44
I would like to clarify what constitutes as "one" moshi kame? I've been trying to practice the Dan ladders to get consistency and familiarity with them, but I've never quite understood what 500 moshi kames are. Is "one" moshi kame one catch (i.e. just big cup) or is it a set (big cup+small cup) or like (big cup+small cup+big cup)? I hope this makes sense!
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: BKA on 28 January, 2014, 10:47:26
Each cup catch is one.
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: MisterJumpshoe on 16 February, 2014, 20:39:45
My record for moshi is 1,480, which I did with a stringless Ozora.  No witnesses, unfortunately!  That was two years ago and there is no way I could do it again now.  I incurred some kind of injury while training for my 1st Dan last year.  I don't know if it's an inflammation or RSI or carpal tunnel syndrome or whatever, but right-handed I couldn't do more than ten catches at the minimum required speed for a grading (135 bpm).  It doesn't hurt exactly; it's just that the muscles feel tired and numb most of the time and simply will not react.  I've been trying tentatively to do it left-handed, but I am reticent about practising every day.  Today, I managed 169 catches at a reasonably good speed.  Not sure what it was exactly, but certainly more than 135 bpm.

I only say this as a caveat to other players.  Everyone seems to have been fortunate so far (or not silly enough to over-train).
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: Kev on 19 February, 2014, 14:39:22
I'm feeling your pain [user]MisterJumpshoe[/user], I recently got up to self certifying 1st Dan but the wheels have come off my Moshi Kame since. My record is 917 but over the last couple of weeks I'm struggling to hit 50!

I did manage to get to 100 once today but only at a very slow speed. At the required rate of 135 I'm currently seeing about 30-40 on average.

I've got the day off so going to try again.



Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: M.Wang on 11 June, 2014, 01:39:09
Whoa. That's a lot. My record is 147. My sisters is 10. (She learned spike before moshi kame. ._.
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: Sqveel on 01 July, 2014, 09:41:25
Moshi kame + Tomeken (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxr-GP9mSv8#)

^ my fav moshi kame video. I wish I could just casually click like that on my way around.

also, EACH CATCH counts as one? I've always counted a big and small cup as one. I don't really practice going for as long as I can on this anymore. I used to, but once I got to about 30ish (which according to you guys is actually 60ish)  I stopped. If I moshi kame for a long time it's usually cos a really good song for it with a fine beat comes on, and i'll click away for the whole song. I always listen to music, can't click without it. I'm not the biggest fan but old school playground rap music like jurrasic 5 and rizzle kicks seems to be best for me.   

also, 20 minutes? that's insane? though saying that I don't actually know how long i could go for.
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: PikWik on 01 July, 2014, 20:41:14
word. rizzle kicks!

glad to hear kids still have an ear for J5 and that old-school hiphop sound

Ugly Duckling - Turn it Up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9yvONyZyAE#)
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: s070s on 13 July, 2014, 13:51:43
practicing hard today
when i realized ... i forget the min. speed for moshi's
was that 130 bpm or al you allowed to do it even slower.

i remember nabin (kendama spain ) last year (ejc 2013) havin a very interesting technic.
his approach was a litter slower and hi only 'diped' with the big cup catch

and i know mr dutchkendama blasts through moshi's @ 280 bpm
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: BKA on 13 July, 2014, 14:00:40
http://www.kendama.co.uk/tricks.html (http://www.kendama.co.uk/tricks.html) "....Moshi kame, which must be performed at 135 beats/minute."

280!!! You perhaps mean 180.
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: s070s on 13 July, 2014, 14:19:40
oke thx for the info

i also could have said 1080, i just meant ... he does it fast.
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: Sqveel on 29 July, 2014, 13:15:46
I've recently taken the string off my kendama for practising moshi kame, it certainly helps a lot.  I can get over 50 now (60 something's my record) but that's at nowhere near the speed that's expected. I'm getting about 115 bpm, when i try at 135 I usually mess up at around 15ish cos it's just so much faster than what I'm used to. Looks like bringing up this speed'll be a slow process.

I do have a bit of a problem though, even more so now that it's stringless.

When I moshi kami I look at the tama, the slight up and down motion it does becomes the focus of my vision. After a couple of minutes of this, i get some weird illusion where it looks like the tama is almost staying still and the background starts to "wub"/throb instead. Not sure how to explain it really, it makes me feel nauseous.  I think it must be cos I'm focusing on something moving so slightly yet so rhythmically, for so long.  It is usually what ends my streaks. I'll feel the need to look somewhere else cos looking at the tama makes me queasy, and then when i do look at anything else my focus shifts and i miss my catch.

anyone else get this?
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: BKA on 30 July, 2014, 07:48:37
Some suggestions:
Breathe, blink.
Try adjusting your focus in depth, i.e. look straight past the kendama at a spot on the floor for a moment, but keep the tama in the centre of your field of vision. Then back to the tama.
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: Davo on 30 July, 2014, 18:31:07
Hoping than someone more knowledgeable than I will advise otherwise if I make a suggestion that could be counterproductive for someone seeking certification---I am not; just using it to rehab a pair of abused knees (OK, and it's fun  ;-)
I was months trying to break 100 without a miss, and I'm usually working about 120bpm, just because it's a natural rhythm, though I feel now that I can pick up the pace a bit if I choose to.
I ran into the same kinds of troubles when looking directly at the tama, and what I did was to glance at the cup that's moving -away- from the tama: big cup catch -> glance to base cup and back;  base cup catch -> glance to big cup, and back.
It's helped a lot. I first broke 100 catches like a week and a half ago, and for the past week I've been getting 130s-140s.
Enjoying progress--had forgotten what it was like for a bit.
(I've left the tama strung---not quick enough yet to make that grab when I miss, and I absolutely don't like chasing it ;-)
Title: Moshi Kame
Post by: LarsVegas on 15 September, 2014, 18:38:49
For the first time ever I broke the 300 barrier. 529 in my first attempt tonight at exactly 130 bpm - stringless. It really does miracles. Now I'm a little bit more optimistic for Saturday's exam.
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: BKA on 15 September, 2014, 19:00:40
Hooray! Good luck Lars!
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: the milky oolong on 15 September, 2014, 22:39:30
Quote from: LarsVegas on 15 September, 2014, 18:38:49
For the first time ever I broke the 300 barrier. 529 in my first attempt tonight at exactly 130 bpm - stringless. It really does miracles. Now I'm a little bit more optimistic for Saturday's exam.

Best of luck, Lars! Just relax and breathe, don't think too much, and make sure the backdrop at your ken-hand-level is generic and bland (no drastic changes of colour, no lights, especially no blinking ones) - I did my Moshikame at the EKO this year, and the first time I tried I started with an annoying two-level background of concrete and dark blue curtain in front of me; I lasted about 75 Moshis. The next chance I got was in the park with the bare earth framing my ken-hand, and I landed 785. Maybe it's just me, but a busy background is killer in my opinion.
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: shalafi on 06 April, 2015, 10:17:21
Until now I've been doing this trick out of focus and most of the times counting in my head, even in the cases when I had a judge or my app to count for me.

I've decided to try the music approach, and for that I've been checking some songs. My moshi-kame song is going to be Everlong, by Foof Fighters, which has 145 bpm ;-)

The math says that if I do all the song I do 655 moshi-kames, which is enough for 3rd Dan, but I'll put it in repeat mode, just in case I got a chance to do 1000.
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: AOÄ on 25 June, 2015, 08:51:21
Good thread! Moshi kame is the one thing that I haven't been practicing basically at all after first starting with kendama. But now it's starting to seem appealing to me. Found really good tips in this thread and just wanted to say (kind of an extension to what shalafi said above) that I found this site to be helpful http://www.bpmdatabase.com/index.php (http://www.bpmdatabase.com/index.php)  Just search for songs with 135 bpm and Mosh!

Still struggling to get 100 but daily moshi sessions from now on!
Title: Re: Moshi Kame
Post by: s070s on 30 June, 2015, 09:12:36

https://youtu.be/rbLNiL6bbok

so sweet  :P